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Post Info TOPIC: 1970 Chevrolet Camaro Pro Stock Grumpys Toy VIII


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1970 Chevrolet Camaro Pro Stock Grumpys Toy VIII


GREAT NEWS. My contacts over at the grudge race forum gave me to potential info on finding the real car. According to one source the racer who bought it off Sandovalmight have been a guy named  John Gali from Mt Vernon NY. Let the search continue.

-- Edited by Rich S on Monday 17th of January 2011 02:15:26 PM

-- Edited by Rich S on Monday 17th of January 2011 11:25:58 PM

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I dont know if anybody here can still contact Dennis ferrara,but I was curious to know,did the car had steel doors and real side glass when he had it? It would be interesting to know if the car might still have the born with doors.

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From my memory banks.  I think Dennis Ferrara added glass doors before the front was repainted. Back in those days PS cars still had to use a steel shell and doors with glass.

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Did this 70 Grumpy Camaro start life as a factory BB SS car ?

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black-blue72 wrote:

Did this 70 Grumpy Camaro start life as a factory BB SS car ?





 It started as a "Body in White".  Never an assembly line built car.

 



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black-blue72 wrote:

Did this 70 Grumpy Camaro start life as a factory BB SS car ?




 I think the show car (Toy #7) was a factory bigblock car.

Toy #8 was picked up nas a bare shell and boxes of parts,but no running gear .



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Here is one I never seen before. It looks like there were probably glass windows min this pic. Plastic windows use a metal frame to keep them in place unless the door has a frame all the way up to the roof. This pic says a little more then we knew about the car. It was after Richie Zul owned it and it looks like maybe there is some of the original firewall left. I am really surprised that this car was a full frame car.Most full frame car have the front wheels moved un more. This is almost definatly an A arm car,but if it is a stock setup or some kind of Vega/Pinto setup I dont know. In my opinion if the car never evolved much beyond this level of modification it would be a legitimate restorable car to me. I would really like to see some real good photos of the car at this stage particuarly of the underhood and interior areas.



-- Edited by Rich S on Wednesday 19th of January 2011 12:03:31 AM

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That's what it looked like in the spring of 77 when I saw him at the Cayuga Points Meet. By Aug of 77 the door windows were gone and I'm sure fiberglass doors installed to help lower the weight so they could use a smaller CU IN engine and stay in the same class of B/EA. I think they trimed off all the weight they could to lighten it (anything and every thing went).

-- Edited by Wayne on Wednesday 19th of January 2011 10:32:46 AM

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Wayne wrote:

That's what it looked like in the spring of 77 when I saw him at the Cayuga Points Meet. By Aug of 77 the door windows were gone and I'm sure fiberglass door installed to help lower the weight so they could use a smaller CU IN rngine and stay in the same class of B/EA. I think they trimed off all the weight they could to lighten it (anything and every thing went).



What a shame. I guess it was all downhill from there.

 



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Just some cool info. I am retiring my small tire 1973 Firebird race car as of last season and restoring it all back to street trim and actually hanging Camaro sheet metal on it. I have aquirred everything over the last 4 years,and am doing the change over right now(well not RIGHT NOW). I want to build a new/lighter race car with big tires.

About 5 years ago I picked up a 74 Camaro to build into my new street car,and planned on hanging the 73 Sheet metal on it(actually the 74 had NOS fenders,door,trunk lid and many other parts.) As it turns out I could stick a screwdriver thru the rear frame rails,and The car was way more rotted then I though. I have always like the looks of the 74 transitional era pro stockers,so guess what I am doing.

Yup,its gonna look a lot like this car(not sure on the paint,but it will be candy/metalflake retro) the car will have a modern 4 link in the back but set up to sit high enough that the tires can sit near the wheel opening like they did back in the day. The front subframe will be attached to the new rear clip with a slight "Z" to the installation so the body will look slammed down in the front while not having ground clearance issues. The wheels will be real Super Tricks(although I thought about trying to dress up some weld 5 stars to look like the old Motor Wheels in the back) and the front runners will be on the tall side. The firewall will be moved back to the base of the windshield and the engine set back. It will get a snorkle scoop,fiberglass nose and bumpers,and the doors will be real steel with real glass with the crash bars cut out. I actually want to be able to put historic plates on it and drive it to cruise nights. I have been racing the electronics class at a few tracks in div 1 over the last few years. I had a dragster a few years back and got bored with it,and am a 2nd gen Camaro guy to the core. My 3500# slapper bar car on 10" wire tires just doesnt have the room to grow,and I dont want the super gas low rider kind of ride.

The current engine in my small tire car is a real 427+.060,with a GM flat tappt cam that they made in the late 60's as a veriation of the L-88. The trans is a powerglide,and the rear a 12 bolt. The car weighs 3500# with me in it and runs 10.40's. I would like the new car to weigh under 3000#. I also missed the boat big time with the compression(11:1) and think I could find another 30 or 40 hp by going up to about 13:1. Since I have a ton of cleanance with the little .560 lift cam I plan on having the heads cut .070". I figure 9.80's is possible. With a throttle stop I can run 10.90's and with the stock floor pan I should be able to dial the car back a little and run 10.0's so I can avoid the need for constant updates and even run just a regular fire jacket and open face helmet.

So anyway,after the 73 street car is done(I am a regular on www.NastyZ28.com ) I will start on the new race car. I will also have progess thread on the "projects" forum on Nasty Z. My user name there and on many of the other muscle car forums is Rich Schmidt or Super Duty 427.

Thanks to anybody who bothered to read this post,I figured I would throw a little bit of info about me out there.

BTW,I am also only 39 years old,so I was still peein in diapers when this car was making headlines.

-- Edited by Rich S on Wednesday 19th of January 2011 01:57:37 AM

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I spoke to John Sandoval who ive known for over 25years today.....He did in fact buy the car from Ferrara......It was in fact an original Grumpys Toy.....It was a 70 camaro....he said over the years hes had it he changed it to a 74, 78 and an 81 camaro over the years....changed the nose tail lights and rear glass.......He then sold it to some grudge racers in Mt. Vernon NY.....later on down the line USA-1 contacted him and wanted to buy the car to restore it.....he then put USA-1 in contact the guys who bought it from him and they bought the car and its out on the west coast now!!!

HERES THE CAR IN FRONT OF HIS SHOP WHEN HE OWNED IT



Glad i could help you guys out

-- Edited by nos302 on Wednesday 19th of January 2011 02:02:03 AM

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Oh boy. I wonder if the restored car is in fact the real deal. Wouldnt that be a twist? There never was any real evidence that the restored car was bogus except that Dennis Ferrara and Richie Zul never verified it. I wonder if the ownership trail that the restorer used to document the car included this ownership path.

Does John Sandoval have any more pics of the car? Maybe he could contribute to verifying it. If you can find any other pics of the car maybe even the engine compartment/firewall or the interior it would be awsome.

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Im gonna try and stop back by his shop tomorrow and kick it with him, hes still building motors and building chassis.....Ill check and see if hes got any other photos of it......

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Thanks, I would hate to be part of discrediting the car if it was in fact the real deal. I basically felt that the guy who bought the car and commisioned the restoration was being evasive about what kind of ownership history he had. It also seemed fishy that he said that he couldnt/wouldnt get involved with letting Richie Zul verify the car when Zul was in fact very interested in doing so. Actually John Sandoval would be a better person to verify the car since he did so much additional work on it. Maybe thats who did infact verify the car,but if so,why wouldnt the restorer come out and dispell any of the wrong statements about the car by using his credible info?

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Nos302. I was wondering if you could turn John onto this tread. A few years back I bid on and won an ebay auction for another very old supposed SRD build Camaro from the mid 70's. The deal fell thru. I wonder if the work on this car looks anything like what he found on the car he owned. I would also be interested in how much of the original firewall and inner 1/4 panel structure was left,and if there was any of the original front subframe left. Here are some pics of the SRD car I won the auction on.















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I'll show him the pics and ask him some more detailed questions about the car

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Well. after speaking to Dennis Ferrara myself,it seems as though he as well as Richie Zul both feel that the ar is not the original,and even if it were there would be no way to tell. Dennis Ferrara contacted Mecum about the questions surrounding the car and they seemed to feel that it was too late to make any changes in the auction. Dennis will be at Mecum this weekend. I dont know if he will be there to do anything concerning the issues with the car or just as a spctator/buyer. Dennis did mention that if after all the controversy surrounding the car a buyer is still willing to pay big money for it,then maybe a fool and his money were meant to part. Who knows. I would say that if nothing is said this weekend and the authenticity goes unchallenged at this auction even with Dennis Ferrara there then the car is pretty much going to be accepted as the real deal.

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It shows the car went to 300K and was a no sell. That doesnt mean much since non of the vintage drag cars sold,and none were bid up to spectacular money.

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They probably want 1 Mill for that car because they know it will be hard to discredit as the original car -> no vin# 70 Camaro Dog House ? I can see how it could be recreated nod.gif

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There were a lot of people who discredited the car including past owners,and one of them was even there. The current owner bought the car for 500K back when the market was thru the roof. Like I said,nothing was going for big money,and none of the vintage drag cars met their reserve. All were bid into the same price range. Even the bonafide authenic Jenkins Vega was down over 100 K from it's last sale price.

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Interesting that I posted a link to this tread on another site and somebody requested that it be taken down.

-- Edited by Rich S on Tuesday 1st of February 2011 12:58:59 AM

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Hey Rich S I am really glad that you and the others on this Thread have replied with all the true info and Photo that you do have . I Find this Thread to be one of our Forums Best ones . And it gets Better with every post that is made to it . If someone does not Like it . I would Question them why ? As for that Camaro that's For Sale ? Even as a Recreation it's a Fine car . I sure would Love to make a Pass with it . I use to shift pretty Fast with the Go Fast Pedal Flat Floored and made a Lot of Runs down the 1/4 Mile .

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Rich S wrote:

Interesting that I posted a link to this tread on another site and somebody requested that it be taken down.

-- Edited by Rich S on Tuesday 1st of February 2011 12:58:59 AM



Can you post a link to that thread? I'd like to read it. Interesting story it's been cool to read this.

 



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The tread I was talking about was taken down. It had less info then is here,so it isnt a big deal. I do need to make a few things clear since I think this thing is getting ugly. Here are some FACTS.

Mike G bought the car and had it verified by Jenkins. Dennis Ferrara and Richie Zul are both saying the restored car is a clone BUT neither of them actually looked at the car before the restoration,and niether one has persued actually verifying the car or any parts of it. Their opinion is based entirely on the fact that they feel that the car was too cut up to be restored. I dont think that they really accept that a car that needed so much work could be called an original,but that is a non issue since nobody involved with the car has ever denied the extensive reconstruction work that was done. In terms of what Zul and Ferrara are saying VS what the current and past owner are saying is basically a difference in opinion.

Here is something else to think about. Richie Zul contacted Jenkins a few years back to ask about the car and was told by Jenkins that what he inspected was just the shell of the car,not the chassis. Because of that I dont think Richie Zul knew that the chassis still existed,which would of course lead to the opinion that it would be impossible to document the body panels themselves. I can understand that. Both Richie Zul and Dennis Ferrara agree that the best way to document the car would be to inspect the chassis that the body was sitting on. I recently informed Dennis Ferrara that the chassis still existed as well as a very extensive documentation of the work that was done to the car during the restoration. It also sounds like Dennis' description of the chassis and Mike G's description are reasonably similar,so as it stands right now there is no good reason to say that the restored car isnt the right body. As it stands right now,the current owner and Mike G have a right to be PO'd,because 2 people who were very involved with the car's past,and who could be very valuable in documenting it are casting fact based on opinion.

These guys may or may not choose to all come together and try to agree on something. The current owner of the car doesnt owe anybody the chance to look at or document the car,and the 2 previous owners really should be stating facts about the sheet metal on the car that is based on their opinion of the restoration process.

So my opinion is that nobody should be making claims about the car being bogus because of what Zul or Ferrara said until something in the situation changes.

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Hey guys, I'm new here. I've been researching, restoring, documenting, and collecting famous old drag cars for a long time. You must be very careful and know what matters to you before you invest. If in fact Mike did have the remnants of the original car, verified by time line, photos, and past owners, he could in fact have 'restored' the Grump 8. All of this would have to be photo documented and revealed to potential buyers. There are several cars out there now that only have this much of the original car or less. The car is gorgeous, Grump and Strick were my first heroes, and I would love to own this car. The problem is, to me, it's only worth the cost of the resto because so little went down the track with Grump. The all original cars are worth the most and the value declines as less and less is used in the final product. I have cars from all original down to decals only. I built Grump's 'Black Arrow' 65 Plymouth. The only thing original is a 'Jenkins Competition' sticker that I bought from Grump and his signature on the glove box door! Grump likes it and approves.

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