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Lot's of B.O.P'S in this Junk yard


I know this is the B.O.P Engine Section . But Man there are ton's of them in this Junkyard Video yawn



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B.O.P TECH

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The main reason u find so many BOP's in salvage is because there is a lot less market for building hgh perf BOP's due to their undesrved rep for not being able to rev and the percieved greater expense of BUILDING a BOP VS some of the more popular GM, Ford and Mopar brands. In truth one is more likely to find great deals on salvagable parts for these brands, but in todays age, u get the most bang for the buck and the greatest longevity of the engine if u buy NEW. In THAT case, engine building in terms of the size and amount of power produced is near parity among ALL brands. For instance, i not long ago built an over kill Stage 2 Based 455 Buick Stroker for my Bmer of 573" using ALL after market parts NEW, including RODS, CRANK, BLOCK, PISTONS, and Aluminum Heads, as well as dominator and dominator intake. Cost me under 13k from carb to pan, wtr pmp to flywheel. The engine made 764bhp@ 6130rpm and 689lb/ft TQ @ 3780rpm on 92 octane sunnoco with a flat tappet solid lift cam. u can not buy or build a 573" stroker anything for any less.
Tho this engine never actually made it into the Bmer since it was way more than i could effectively use without another 5-8k in chasis, suspension and tire size mods, I did build both a 523 and a 535 Strokers on production blocks with all the attendant band aids needed and after market aluminum heads for under 10k each. again u can't buy or build any simularly sized production block stroker for that. In fact there is no production domestic v8 block that will actually achieve a greater cube level than will the 455 Buick except the siamese bore 403 Small block Olds. A production iron chevy 454 block has a 527 limit, the 440 wedge mopar has a 514 for example. the limit on the 455 Buick is 543 but it really isn't acceptable engine life or replacement cost past 535. The Olds small block V8 actually has the widest possible cube range of ANY domestically produced v8, 260-544, 260, 330, 350 and 403 in production with 403 the largest of all the small block v8 engines, save for the Pontiacs which are essentually ALL BIG BLOCKS useing the same castings from the 1st 267 OHV v8 thru the 455. Unfortunatlly the v8 Pontiac production block has a safe limit of slightly less than 500", 496 is about as far as one can safly go. For BOP fans the great availability of cores and such in salvage is a PLUS, not a MINUS. Even the more exotic example of BOP's escape the notice of most salvagers, in fact a whole lot of folk surprisingly can't really tell the difference between the small and big block v8 olds and buick engines anyway, tho the small blocks are physically smaller than the big block versions of the 2.
Tho as i say, i have had both a 523 and a 535 in my Bmer, my small tire untubbed car has been its quickest with a flat tappet Stage 1 455 based pmp gas 464" This is essentually a peanut mtr, les than 7k in the whole 9 of the engine. it makes 544bhp/567 lb/ft tq on pmp gas thru a full exhaust, and tho i use 1.65 vs the stock 1.55 rocker set on this engine, the flat tappet cam is a HYDRAULIC!!!!

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Dallas


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i agree they are downplayed just like amc was and still is.

if i had the money to build a whole new motor, id build a 400 pontiac stroke for my nova just to piss people off haha.


my friend cleveland has a 79 trans am with a 455 pontiac bored .060 with a super victor big oll 950dp holley 13:1 comp it runs high 9's its cool and those arent light cars?

hes got a tunnel ram for it now to

-- Edited by 283nova on Wednesday 28th of April 2010 08:08:44 PM

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Your review and comparison of the various BOP motor power potential vs. cost is exactly on the money.

The Buick has some nice additional advatages like its relatively light weight.

If I might add a few constraints to your review; I would like to compare building a big block using a stock block with aftermarket heads and new rotating assembly componants.

You mention using all new componants and that they are relatively similar in price.  Using a stock block would also make all the blocks about the same price.

The price and performance of the available aftermaket heads might be the vairable.  It seems that most big block aftermarket heads are about 20 years old in design tecknology.  Would the price and newer design be the determining factors?

Also I would ask you to add two bocks to the comparison; the 472/500 caddy and the 385 series Ford.  Both stock blocks can be pushed out the the 535-545 range and both have recent aftermarket heads.  The Ford has some very good recently developed heads.

For street motors the more cubic inches making a massive and flat torque curve is the goal.  And like your Buick motors making thos cubic inches has to be at the lowest cost - taking all parts ad build costs into account. 

How do either of these additional engines compare to the Buick?

I appricate your comments.

Thanks,

Tim



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Welcome to Hot Rod House co11b . You seem to have a Good Hot Rod head there that's good for the Forum the more Idea's the better .


Sure Cost is a considering Factor . Cubic inch =ing Cubic Dollars . I would think the Biggest factor of Building any of the engines mentioned would be availability of a Good Short Block . If your going to buy New Heads . If Not a Good Rebuild-able Long Block .

From what I have Heard the Caddy Engine Builds are Very Costly . The Ford 385 series 429-460's are good but Like the other Engines Buick Olds Pontiac you will be only using the Block if your going to go Monster Cubic Inch's .

I would think the Pontiac BB would be your Cheapest but not the Biggest BB Build . The Buick and Olds need Oiling system improvements . All of the Builds would end up with High Dollar Rotating Assembles .

It most of the Time is dictated by the Car Make it's going to be installed in . I would say the King of the BB Strokers Leaving Chevy out of the Mix . Would Be the Large inch 385 series Ford . They are some Bad Mother Bears !


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True, stroker rotating assemblies are expensive, but if you are going to use new parts anyway the additional cost of the stroker componants is worth it - at least to me...

Thanks for the heads up on the max CI of the various BOP blocks.  I didn't know the Buick had the largest capacity of the three.

My dad always had pontiacs and I still really like them - I had a '63 GP for years.  But as you say they are too limited in capacity with the stock block.   

The caddy block can be pushed out to the 540 range and the parts don't seem any more expensive than BOP stuff.  At least two new alum heads are out there but I don't know if they are any more effective than the Buick aftermarket stuff.

I've never really been a Ford guy, but I've started to get past the brand stuff and just admire how much torque for the money stroker big blocks make.  The 530 ci 385 series with the Kasse heads make killer torque and relatively low cost in comparison.

The GM LSX stuff is starting to approach output and cost effectiveness of these big blocks - and with an all alum block.  These motors look like a good alternative for a complete street motor under $10K making max street rpm torque.

Have you tried an inexpensive TBI type fuel injection system with your stroker Buicks?

Did I catch you right?  You are sticking these staggering Buick street motots into BMWs?

Thanks again,

Tim

 

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B.O.P TECH

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Do not discount the BOP's as stroker potentials. The Pontiacs ARE somewhat limited in their size potential when useing a production block, about 498 is the largest safe level. Fortunately there are after market Pontiac blocks based on the famed Warior enterprises block available from Jim Butler among other Pontiac suppliers which offer strokes up to 5" availability with lil notching of their pan rails and at a price competetive with any after market blocks for any other brand.
The Olds and the Cadillac, which is an Oldsmobile Big Block V8 with a longer stroke crank, a reversed oiling system and the dist moved to the front of the block, offer a great range of sizes even in stock production blocks. The same stroker techniques and costs that apply to the olds thus apply to the cadillac blocks, not to mention that edelbrock makes some rather nifty alum,inum heads for the V8 Olds. In recent engine challenge shoot out a team produced an honest 650bhp on pmp gas with a 403 small block Olds in fact. Of the GM indeed all production V8 domestic blocks the small block Olds V8 offers the largest cube range potential from 260" to as much as 544"
The Buick Production block has a cube limit of as much as 543, in fact i have had both a 523 AND a 535" BB Buick built on production blocks and TA Performance sells stroker rotating assemblies from 493 thru 535". Up to 496 useing an offset ground stock nodular iron crank which is extremely durable and competetively priced with stroker rotating assemblies for SBC's at around 2400, as well as steel crank stroker assemblies in the same price range. They also produce aftermarket Buick V8 blocks in both cast iron and aluminum as well as 4 diff variations of aluminum heads for the BB Buick V8, also competetively priced, 2250.00 for a complete ready to bolt on set of aluminum Stage 1/Stage 2 heads in fact.
Make no mistake, there is NO PRODUCTION Head to which anything can b done to make it adequately feed anything above 500 cubes and no production block u can stroke and poke past that size for any less than any other save for the 385 series Ford BB V8 which can b taken to as much as 514 cubes useing a cheap offset ground stock crank, a set of relatively inexpensive forged .060 over pistons and a set of stock 455 Buick forged steel rods.
The thing is however, there is not nearly as much to b gained from big stroker versions of the B O P's as one might expect. As i said earlier i have actually had 523" and 535" stroker BB Buicks IN my BMW, as well as built an all after market 573" engine based on a BullDogg Engineering after market Buick block. The latter cost me just a tad under 14k to build carb to pan, fan to flywheel, which is nearly exactly what it would cost one to build a 573 cube anything, or even to purchase a crate version of same. This engine produced a broad flat power curve 764bhp@6130rpm and a monster 704lb/ft TQ@4210rpm w/ over 700bhp from 52-6500 rpm and over 600lb/ft tq from 3600- 6400rpm all on 92 octane pmp gas w/ a 10.3-1 mechanical compression ratio and 4.5" bore x 4.5" stroke. I used a set of TA's Stage 3 version of their aluminum heads which i had used on both the 523 and 535" strokers on production blocks i had built previously.
Of the 3 B O P's the Big Block Buick is by far the lightest of the blocks, and with a stock nodular iron crank that is every bit as strong and durable as one for any other brand big block engine. Unfortunately this light weight also makes for one of the weakest blocks which need a host of band aids to live even at stock cube levels when producing large amounts of power and or useing big solid roller cams. In point of fact a BB Buick V8 dress in cast as from the factory is less than 50lbs more than an SBC also dressed in cast from the factory. Add aluminum heads and intake and a set of headers to both and the BB Buick, even with all the band aids is nearly 10lbs less than a simularly set up SBC.
When i say about all the band aids used to make a BB Buick live producing large amounts of power do not take it as a put down, since the band aids are relatively inexpensive and once applied the blocks are as bullet proof as is any other production block at the same power output levels. Probally the cheapest band aid needed is to address a point already made about the BB Buick V8, and that is an improvement in the oiling system. This needed improvement can b addressed with a TA/Melling Oil pmp kit which comes with an adjustable pressure regulator and a plate with an extended lenth gear set which increases the stock pmps volume by 30% and will produce a stable 75 psi oil pressure hot with any good 40W single G oil by 5000rpm. Even without any modification to the blocks oil passages the oiling system issue is cured by this and for less than 120.00 and about 30 minutes of work on the stock timing cover.
Melling also produces an oil pmp w/pick up that does the same for a Pontiac V8 w/o a adjustable pressure regulator. I have versions of both systems employed in the present engines for my BMW and my Trans Am.
As for Oldsmobile, they are a relatively low oil pressure engine, Stock, normal oil pressure hot is a max of 35psi. a Melling pmp set up that produces a stable 45psi hot is more than adequate for ANY V8 Olds build in ANY Olds V8 block. The weak link in the olds V8 is their relativeluy large crank and rod journal sizes, either of which can b safly cut down as much as .030 tho past .020 like anything else u need a somewhat expensive pinned cap, rod and block set up to keep the extra thick bearings in place under load, so as with others .020 or less is the only cost effective relief useing the stock cranks which are ALL plain cast or in the case of the performance BB V8 2cnd gens, nodular cast. a scant few of the early 2cnd gen v8 small blocks had steel cranks but these are as rare as hens teeth. With the large capacity SB Olds V8 the issue is the bmain saddles which are essentually suspended in air pedestals, some of which are even hollow. That is an issue because at or above 500" with a V8 Olds the siamese bore 403 block is the one u need to use, preferably the diesel block. This block is most often refered to as the 350 Olds diesel, erroneously like as not because its in the SB Olds V8 case, but it is and always has been 403 siamese bore block at 6.6 litres, the non siamese bore 260-350 blocks never could achieve the cyl wall strenth and rigidity required for a diesel with their between the bores water jackets so they produced a hgh nickel version of the siamese bore 403 blocks known as the Olds DRE block. To reach 400+ cubes in their small block, Olds did essentually the same thing that chevy did to achieve that level in thewir small blocks, they siamesed the bores, the diff is that the Olds small blocks use the same 3.38 stroke and rods including the 403, here again u want the DRE small block since tho relatively heavy they come with forged steel rods and cranks.
As i have already prefaced this post, in todays money it virtual parity in price cube for cube to build any engine, even a V6 or a 4cyl for production of large amounts of hp output with a decent engine life so what brand of stroker if any, or just production sized engine u choose to build its just a matter of preference and brand loyalty pretty much, either or, the " speed costs , how fast ya wanna go ?" adage yet applies.
ALL recip engines are heat pmps and their physical capacity determines that any recip engine of its same size capacity hasn't the capability to produce any more power than does any other. At a given cube level, given 100% volumetric and thermal efficiency in operation they all produce the exact same amount of power. The variation in power output of engines is strictly a reflection of the level of volumetric and thermal efficiency one achieves with an engine, nothing more. There are 2 maxims to observe: 1) There is no replacement for displacement, only substitutes which suffice only so long as the greater cubes doesn't employ them as well. 2) The breakwater in power production of any IC recip engine is 1whp/hp/bhp per cube in terms of durability and driveability, as well as fuel economy. By the time u reach 1.25hp/bhp/whp per cube u have less than 70% of either of these that u had at 1hp/bhp/whp per. By the time u get to 2hp/bhp/whp per u have less than 40 per cent of these parameters as u did at 1hp/bhp/whp per.....again, Speed costs... in more ways than we often consider when seeking more of same. If ur building a drag race oriented set up or already have one, there is another maxim to consider: Drag racing is a contest of ACCELLERATION RATE, not speed, and accelleration rate from rest is a function of TQ and traction, not horsepower and RPM.

As Tango says, when building a stroker B O P or stroker anything for that matter budget is ur limiting factor since cube for cube its about parity among all the domestic V8's in cost to build a reliable and powerful stroker.

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Dallas


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One thing to think about is that you can make a lot of power and be reliable with stock parts,and a lot of those stock parts have a similar ceiling for power. Look at a 455 Olds engine. You can easily make 650 hp and have it stay together with stock Olds rods and stock nodular crank. The limit is that you will start pushing the bottom end out at those power levels or higher. You could fudge it a little bit with girdles and other band aids,but for a street car,is 650 hp all that bad?

Many companies are also offering much cheaper fixes for some of the weak links in many brands of engines. Pontiacs have always been plauged with "arma steel" rods. It used to be that you needed to adapt some kind of big block chevy race rod with custom pistons if you wanted to make a 7000 rpm Poncho. Now you can get Eagle and Scat rods that right right in like stockers and can handle any power you can throw at them.

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In the Early 80's My Father and I started to Build some Pontiac's . Back then there really was not a Lot of High End Speed Parts made for Full Race Pontiac Engines Let alone Budget Brand Forged Bottom end parts . Even ARP stuff wasn't around . We would have the Cast Rods shot peened and re-Sized and use 383 Mopar Rod Bolts because that's the only Bolts that would work in Factory Pontiac Rods . If you watched the RPM's they would hold up well in 455's making around 550 H.P . On one Engine we Built . We Used Aluminum Super Rods with Domed Pistons and Ported out a Set of D-Port Heads to Match the Intake Port size of a Ram Air Intake Gasket . We Raged on Lots of Chevy's Mopar's and Ford's with them Pontiac's . Still today I have to say I would enjoy Building another one with some good Factory castings .

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well my 440 has been stroked and poked to 528 cubes and I could have went out to 543 all for less than 10 grand with alum heads ,exsternal oil system and 1090 king demon and this was useing a factory 1970 magnum block.

this is a common mopar kit from 440 source.

with use of a factory mega block you can obtain a max of 655 ci out of a big block mopar indy cylinder head co builds and sells them all the time

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My Friend had a Nice 1972 440 Mopar Engine that was sitting in his Garage for many Years . He Took it out of a Smashed New Yorker with Low Miles . I was always thinking I would Find a Clean Mopar that needed a BB Engine and I would Buy that 440 . Finally My Friend sold it to a Guy with a 1969 Charger . They are impressive Engines in Size and Power nod.gif

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B.O.P TECH

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There seems 2 b a few long held misconceptions about BOPC engines from GM

1st, Oldsmobile has to be defined... The Oldsmobile Division was aquired by GM from the Ransom Olds Family as a dedicated research and development division based on  work toward the development of both overhead valve engines as well as fluid drive(automatic)Transmissions. (Hydramatic was a division of OLDSMOBILE b4 becoming cooporate begining with the 1963 model year production@ which time the chevy/gmc power glide became a production of hydramatic and available across al division productions). tho refocused/renamed recently(Saturn) and partially divested, OLDSMOBILE has return to FULL Corporate control and focused on the advancement and production of the last of the olds productions...

Cadillac.....Is actually a joint divisional production of OLDSMOBILE and BUICK, the parent, incorporating and founding Division of GM. Cadillac, along with its sister company, Lassalle were aquired by GM for their lionshare of production of the 1st VIABLE automotive electric starter(75%) from Dayton Electric Company(DELCO) then owned by Charles Kettering in Dayton, Ohio. Upon aquisition Lassalle became a BUICK MODEL, while Cadillac became a JOINT production of Buick as FINAL ASSEMBLY and DISTRIBUTION, while OLDSMOBILE and HYDRAMATIC produces the POWER TRAIN. This Joint production remains in effect to this very day in that manner.

Pontiac, was a GM aquisition based on a model produced for them by OAKLAND MOTOR CARRIGES, who produced luxury motorized carriges usein Chevrolet/GMC 6 cyl engines and BUICK drive lines, so as to be an intermediate production to bridge the gap between the ENTRY level Chevrolet, and the luxury divisions of BUICK, OLDSMOBILE and CADILLAC...In fact, to the end of Pontiac Production it was Chevrolet's Sister Division tho Buick Controlled. the overhead valve v8 SBC Chevy and the ohc valve Pontiac v8 engine were designed and developed by the same engineer with the PONTIAC being the 1st to b designed and developed upon which was based the Chevy design. MOST Pontiac and SBC Chevy ohv engine valetrain components interchage, and their camshafts are machined from the same blank castings.

But for Pontiac, which always used its same original Block castings, all other BOP 2cnd gen BB v8's have a cube capacity well in excess of 500" in production blocks, tho the largest cube capacity(544") and the widest cube range(260"-544") titles r held by the SBO,(small block olds). Pontiac production blocks have an absolute limit of 500" and a safe limit of 496".

Either of the BOPC V8 engines, at or above 501" will produce an honest 600bhp+ on pmp gas with a flat tappet hydraulic camshaft @ or below 6500 rpm thru a full exhaust and b streetable as in acceptable engine life and driveability with their STOCK cranks, stock head castings and 1 carb. with after market cranks, heads, girdles etc and the same attention toi detail that would b paid to any other simularly sized engine's prep this power rate goes up to 950bhp with acceptable drivability and engine life, using RACE fuel or a RACE fuel Mix dpending on compression..more compression= fewer rpm needed to achieve bhp factor in both cases.

the beauty of this is that in either case, BTQ numbers are going to EXCEED BHP numbers significantly and occur at relatively LOW RPM, but therin lies the rub so to speak...NO ENGINE no matter how well prepped will last long being UNLOADED which occurs when power production exceed LOAD. It is exceedingly hard to load extreemely HGH TQ numbers at low RPM, this is why one seldom sees any BOPC powered vehicle of ANY size out of the 10 sec zone w/o tubbing, cageing and extensive chasis modifications, as well as FEW in the 10 sec zone w/o same.

BTW, for the person who said that hgh perf parts were widely unavailable for PONTIAC'sd in the 80's??.... NO SIR, they were NOT, YOU were unaware of the sources, such as Butler automotive, Warrior Ent, even Holman Moody, Edelbrock and the list goes on, all these concerns have been around since the 60's. I am a lifelong BOPC fanADDICTIC who began buyin n racing BOPC powered rides in the mid 60's, the only BOPC ever to have any significant shortage of hgh perf parts avaiability has been CADILLAC versions of the OLDS OHV V8 and to a great extent that remains the case.

Most of us here are DRAG Race oriented hot rodders, BOPC powered rides offer far greater potential for succes at same than they are ever given credit evn by their fans...the misconception stems from the widely held miscenception that drag racin is about how fast u goin at the finish line, it actually isn't so much about as it is about how quickly u got there... the lower et ALWAYS wins, but the hgher mph ONLY wins when its accompanied by the lower ET.. HGH BHP requires relatively HGH RPM thus has a great account 4 MPH in the traps, what most accounts 4 ET is TQ factor and Traction factor...all BHP is not created equally, the more tq one makes and fewer rpm at which its made, fewer rpm r then needed to achieve any BHP factor. IE one may make 550bhp@6500 rpm, all else = if i make 550 ft/lb brake tq@3000 rpm i can gear to never exceed 5000 rpm in a 1/4 mile and beat ur ET...

a stock 70-72 Stage 1 455 Buick is stock w/510 ft/lb BTQ@ 2800rpm/ 360bhp@5000rpm....a Stock HO455 Pontiac makes 500 lb/ft BTQ@ 3400rpm/390bhp@5300 rpm, a stock W30 455 Olds makes 500lb/ft BTQ@3400 rpm/390-400bhp@5300rpm(390bhp rate in W30 Hurst Olds n 442's, 400bhp rate in Olds Toronado), a 501" Cad makes 350bhp@4500rpm/500lb/ft BTQ@2800 rpm.

wit a lil massagin n some bolt on's either of these will put a 300-3500lb car well into the 12, evn the hgh 11's given adequate traction, F/SS(F showroom condition stock) class record of 12.20@112mph was set by a 71 Stage 1 455 Buick Gran Sport Skylark

 




-- Edited by TANGO on Friday 1st of April 2011 08:36:38 AM

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